24 replies

1. Zach Leatherman 13 min later

   Importantly: Eleventy is *still* punching far above its weight despite the Netlify-induced setbacks we faced this year.

   Many of the frameworks listed are VC-funded with multiple full-time developers. We don’t have that—intentionally. Our project goals are different.

   As I’ve said before: Eleventy and Astro are allies in the web development framework melee. When Astro wins, Eleventy wins too. It isn’t a zero-sum game.

   1. Zach Leatherman 15 min later

      (and I hope Astro dethrones Next.js too)

      1. benschwarz 1 hr later

         @zachleat Next.js is only ‘at the top’ if you’re on Twitter or believe the marketing. It’s far from the most popular framework

         1. Zach Leatherman 1 hr later

            @benschwarz yeah, absolutely.

            1. benschwarz 3 hr later

               @zachleat sorry, I know you know that and I was speaking at you—feverishly in agreement 😜

      2. Zach Leatherman 1 hr later

         @zachleat One more thought before I sign off: I’m very interested to read the (afaict) absent methodology document that was historically included alongside the survey, documenting sources of data and margins of error.

         Here’s the one from 2022: https://jamstack.org/survey/2022/community-survey-2022-methodology.pdf

         I’m sure it will arrive shortly!

         1. Zach Leatherman 11 hr later

            Am I done with this thread? Apparently not. 😅

            Here’s what an intellectually honest version of the Netlify State of the Web chart looks like (and this one doesn’t obscure Gatsby)

            1. Jon 12 hr later

               @zachleat it's hard to see what argument is the best to convince enterprise away from Next.js :/

               1. Zach Leatherman 12 hr later

                  @scrwd enterprises are often the slowest movers in the space, the ever given still obstructing the suez canal 😅

               2. Zach Leatherman 13 hr later

                  @scrwd one more thought here: the best evidence is *Gatsby* and the very risky, tenuous relationship that frameworks have with VC investment. Enterprises hate risk—and not even Next’s success can survive the end of the runway

            2. Private reply 14 hr later
            3. nate 14 hr later

               @zachleat The fact that the original report didn't even include a chart like this is wild. Year-to-year growth is a very different metric than overall usage/satisfaction. Younger projects will inherently see more initial growth. A more objective framing would have contextualized the original chart against the absolute numbers.

               I'm sorry folks are drawing the wrong conclusions about Eleventy from the report. This isn't a competition—framework monoculture is *always* bad for the web.

               1. Zach Leatherman 14 hr later

                  @nmoo Page 10 (of 13) of the primary report had the original chart (alone). The second chart showing absolute numbers for sentiment was buried in the appendices on Page 32 (of 39).

                  (And I *really* appreciate you for saying this)

                  1. nate 14 hr later

                     @zachleat Ah yes, internet users famously love to check page 32 of the appendices before drawing conclusions!

                     Of course man. Not a fight I'm interested in fighting and not a narrative I feel the need to participate in ✊

            4. Amelia Bellamy-Royds 1 day later

               @zachleat Oh yeah, that's a very different story. Showing only annual % change in a popularity contest is very unusual choice indeed.

               If they wanted to show change while also respecting actual values, each of those bubbles in your chart could have a tail extending from last year's position.

   2. David Brownman 27 min later

      @zachleat can you expand on that point? Are Astro and Eleventy related?

      1. Zach Leatherman 37 min later

         @xavdid Astro and Eleventy share the same zero JavaScript footprint vision for the web. Astro devs have said that Eleventy inspired their project from the beginning!

         A few key differentiators:
         1. We didn’t take VC funding: we’re in it for the long haul.
         2. They are bundler-first and Vite-based, which is great but has build performance costs. Eleventy is faster because we don’t bundle a bundler.

         A few more:
         * https://www.zachleat.com/web/site-generator-review/
         * https://www.11ty.dev/docs/performance/
         * https://www.11ty.dev/blog/newstack/

   3. Dan Ryan 36 min later

      @zachleat almost nothing is a zero-sum game. The faster we all figure that out the better.

      1. Zach Leatherman 41 min later

         @d well said

   4. David Fitzgibbon 8 hr later

      @zachleat I love how you think about this stuff. Thanks for being such a positive force, it cant be easy. ❤️

      1. Zach Leatherman 10 hr later

         @lofi appreciate you! I’m really just trying to do the right thing even when it’s the hard thing ❤️

   5. Jesse Janowiak 20 hr later

      @zachleat I’m out of the loop, and a search was no help — what were the Netlify-induced setbacks?

      1. Zach Leatherman 21 hr later

         @wonkeythemonkey https://www.zachleat.com/web/eleventy-side-project/

2. Erik Kroes ✅ 1 day later

   @zachleat TIL solidstart is a thing.

   Welcoming offers on https://www.solidstart.info/!