185 replies

1. Arthur Doler Bluesky moments later

   <html>

   1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 1 min later

      at first I was 100% disagree but I’m seeing your point the more I think about it

      1. Arthur Doler Bluesky 10 min later

         I have a joke explanation (the web is bad and we should feel bad) and a real one (<html> doesn't need to exist unless we're going full <xhtml> and pretending that it's a fully-qualified well-structured document in which case we should just have <xhtml> instead of doctypes)

         1. Arthur Doler Bluesky 11 min later

            And the web writ large has NEVER cared about it being a fully-qualified and well-structured document, so...

            1. Michael Bishop Bluesky 1 hr later

               Where do a I send the bill for the therapy I’ll require from this flashback? Related, I miss Mark Pilgrim.

               1. Arthur Doler Bluesky 1 hr later

                  Honestly, I'd send it to Marc Andreessen. He's not entirely responsible, but it's close enough.

2. Melanie Crissey Bluesky 1 min later

   <span>

   1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 3 min later

      this is the best answer so far (imo)

3. Álvaro Montoro Bluesky 1 min later

   <pre>

   1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 4 min later

      <pre><code> continues to be wild

      1. Álvaro Montoro Bluesky 43 min later

         Especially when we have pre and pre-wrap for white-space in CSS.

         1. undiminished somewhere 🌕 Bluesky 7 hr later

            I have to second this. More like <pre>emptive strike on this element amirite

            1. Álvaro Montoro Bluesky 9 hr later

               It should be de<pre>cated.

4. Andrew Allen 🎇 Bluesky 1 min later

   output

   1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 4 min later

      hard disagree!

      1. Andrew Allen 🎇 Bluesky 5 min later

         trying to be a little spicy 🌶️

5. Matthew Mastodon 1 min later

   @zachleat At this precise moment, <input type="time"> which I was trying to use but only with 30-minute increments. Rubbish across the board!

   1. Zach Leatherman Mastodon 10 min later

      @dracos woof, related: <input type="number">

      1. Matthew Mone Mastodon 2 hr later

         @zachleat @dracos
         I'mma step out and just say <input> in particular

         y u no make proper elements for each of these? why they gotta all be variants of one super element?!?

         I thought we were supposed to make things that do one thing and do it well?!?!?

         1. Harris Lapiroff Mastodon 4 hr later

            @matt @zachleat @dracos I mean it would be fine enough if all of the form inputs used that element, but then you just also randomly have <textarea> and <select>/<option> (And two distinct ways of rendering buttons, while we’re at it!) 😩

6. lutoma Mastodon 1 min later

   @zachleat marquee (rip)

   1. Zach Leatherman Mastodon 10 min later

      @lutoma marquee is still alive and well 😅 may it never die

7. Private reply Bluesky 2 min later
   1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 4 min later

      even with this bsky.app/profile/zach...

      Quoted post

      1. Private reply Bluesky 9 min later
      2. Burton Smith Bluesky 5 hr later

         This may be the single greatest thing I've seen all week...

         1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 5 hr later

            the week is young… wait

            1. Burton Smith Bluesky 5 hr later

               If there's something better coming, this is going to shape up to be a pretty amazing week.

      3. Evan Deaubl Bluesky 9 hr later

         
         1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 23 hr later

            how dare you target multiple of my specific interests simultaneously

8. Jonathan Aldrich Mastodon 2 min later

   @zachleat gotta be <blink>

   I do admit having fun using some of these more "questionable" elements on my home page, back when the web was new....

   1. Zach Leatherman Mastodon 11 min later

      @JonathanAldrich alright this is a very solid contender — curious if it respects reduced motion 😅

      1. Jonathan Aldrich Mastodon 32 min later

         @zachleat contender or not, there's nothing solid about <blink>!

         ;-)

9. Private reply Bluesky 3 min later
   1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 5 min later

      *looks around*

10. Wolfgang Wiese Bluesky 5 min later

    <style>

    1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 5 min later

       haha this is unhinged in the best way

11. Nic Mastodon 5 min later

    @zachleat <select multiple>

    1. Zach Leatherman Mastodon 12 min later

       @NicMakesStuff usability nightmare!!

12. rem Mastodon 5 min later

    @zachleat RUBY - IT THE WRONG COLOUR

    1. Zach Leatherman Mastodon 12 min later

       @rem tell that to dorothy in oz

13. Rijk van Zanten Bluesky 6 min later

    <select> 😅

    1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 8 min later

       all radios should be selects or vice versa

       1. Philip Tellis Bluesky 23 min later

          Once upon a time Internet Explorer on Windows treated <SELECT> elements as a separate window context from the main page so it didn't share z-index with the rest of the page unless you added an iframe with position:absolute right under it, and that wasn't even the strangest IE issue.

          1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 32 min later

             I see we share history ❤️

             1. Philip Tellis Bluesky 2 hr later

                Shared trauma from developing for IE where your only tool for debugging was the `alert` dialog.

14. Jonathan Stephens Bluesky 7 min later

    A great question for the Family Feud @kevinpowell.co .

    Also <i> or <b> b/c visual bits rather than the better <em> and <strong>.

    1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 9 min later

       time to auction all of the single letter elements to corporate donors

15. Ethan Marcotte Mastodon 8 min later

    @zachleat <html>

    1. Zach Leatherman Mastodon 12 min later

       @beep *eyes narrow*

       1. Ethan Marcotte Mastodon 45 min later

          @zachleat look we both know i’m right

          1. Zach Leatherman Mastodon 47 min later

             @beep I know the spec says it’s optional but I could never

             1. Ethan Marcotte Mastodon 1 hr later

                @zachleat oh no i mean

                it contains nothing but sin and perfidy

                1. Darby M. Dixon III Mastodon 22 hr later

                   @beep @zachleat

                   hypertext more like hypertellin’ me lies

                2. Zach Leatherman Mastodon 23 hr later

                   @beep well wait those are two of my favorite things

                   1. Ethan Marcotte Mastodon 23 hr later

                      @zachleat —hm fair

    2. mnmlst Mastodon 1 hr later

       @beep @zachleat

       Agreed. html should not be the only doctype allowed.

       I miss DTDs

       1. bkardell Mastodon 20 hr later

          @mnmlst @beep @zachleat you miss actual dtds or you miss the idea that we can evolve beyond it somehow?

16. Sam Stephenson Mastodon 8 min later

    @zachleat <script>

    1. Daryl Mastodon 11 min later

       @sstephenson @zachleat +1 to this one

    2. Zach Leatherman Mastodon 14 min later

       @sstephenson the same messaging for <script> is also used in beer commercials: please enjoy responsibly

17. Olex Ponomarenko 🇺🇦 Bluesky 10 min later

    in terms of hardest to remember, <video>

    1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 15 min later

       hmm!

18. Moritz Glantz Mastodon 12 min later

    @zachleat datalist. The idea is brilliant. The implementations in the different browsers are a shitshow.

    (seems like a good place to plug the HTML elements memory quiz: https://moritzglantz.de/html-quiz/ )

19. David M. Schulman 🍗 Bluesky 13 min later

    <table> and all its descendents

    1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 16 min later

       slander!

       1. David M. Schulman 🍗 Bluesky 1 hr later

          1997 called, they want their only means of page layout back

20. Kilian Valkhof Bluesky 14 min later

    With select out of the way, mostly, its gotta be legend and summary for their weird automatic layouts.

    1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 16 min later

       how we doin’ on <fieldset> lately

       1. Geoff Graham Bluesky 20 min later

          Ha! That's the one I stopped by for. But I also kinda appreciate it in a weird way.

          1. Kilian Valkhof Bluesky 22 min later

             I mean, fieldset is mostly fine if you don’t stick a legend in it.

             Get rid of the border and padding and boom, just fancy div.

             Add a legend and suddenly its part of the border? That’s bs.

             1. Johan Westling Bluesky 2 hr later

                Apply float:left; to the legend and you're good to go 😅

                1. Kilian Valkhof Bluesky 2 hr later

                   Feels like a ‘now you have two problems’ type solution 😅

                   1. Johan Westling Bluesky 2 hr later

                      Sure do! But oddly enough I've had great success with it and Grid on the fieldset. But yes, feels very wrong. 😄

       2. Matthias Ott Bluesky 2 hr later

          ┌─ Zach ──────────┐
          └──────────────┘

21. rem / Remy Sharp Bluesky 16 min later

    not the worst, but the most evil: plaintext

22. Simon Cox Mastodon 16 min later

    @zachleat

    Div.

    1. Zach Leatherman Mastodon 17 min later

       @simoncox now I’m trying to decide if div or span is more useful

       1. Simon Cox Mastodon 54 min later

          @zachleat

          Span is far more useful - all this but not this little bit while a div can be a section.

23. Joe Dakroub Bluesky 19 min later

    Can't top the <html> comment, but to add some more spice: <script>.

    The escape hatch of escape hatches. We traded a declarative language for an imperative one that, while great in its own right, has become the crutch for everything.

24. Fyrd Bluesky 23 min later

    <bgsound>

    ...though now I say it I'm a bit nostalgic for random website midis that played on visit

    1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 32 min later

       <audio> can autoplay but only if it’s muted? 😅

       1. Fyrd Bluesky 56 min later

          Sounds... useful? 😄

25. lion-byte (mark) Bluesky 24 min later

    <center>

    1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 33 min later

       we were promised <left>

26. Yoan Malié Mastodon 32 min later

    @zachleat abbr

27. Wolfgang Wiese Bluesky 33 min later

    Noone wrote <iframe> or <frameset>yet.

    You are all young and missed the cruel times.😆

    1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 34 min later

       we love <iframe> and <frameset> history management

       1. Wolfgang Wiese Bluesky 1 hr later

          Do you remember the days when we designed websites using 7 to 10 nested tables?

          That was fun 🥹

28. Benjamin Andrew Bluesky 34 min later

    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>

    1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 34 min later

       this sounds cold

       1. Private reply Bluesky 2 hr later
          1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 2 hr later

             this cements our friendship

29. Cowboy Who? Mastodon 35 min later

    @zachleat <br \>

    1. Sara Joy Mastodon 3 hr later

       @CowboyWho @zachleat this makes me itch

30. Philip Borenstein Bluesky 38 min later

    <dl> <dt> <dd>

    like, guys, you never even put up a fight

    1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 42 min later

       keep <dl> on the <dl>

    2. Max Cerrina Bluesky 9 hr later

       nonironically love these and use them wherever possible

31. Mat “Wilto” Marquis Mastodon 39 min later

    @zachleat `<link rel="canonical" href="ht​tps://wil​.​to/">`

    1. Zach Leatherman Mastodon 44 min later

       @Wilto what would judge judy say

       1. Mat “Wilto” Marquis Mastodon 1 hr later

          @zachleat probably a scornful "sit down," same as last time

32. Robin Whittleton Mastodon 41 min later

    @zachleat <wbr>. I’ve never had a case for it that wouldn’t be better served by a soft hyphen or possibly zero-width space, and now the CSS hyphens has good support it’s completely obsolete.

    1. Zach Leatherman Mastodon 44 min later

       @robinwhittleton phonetically delightful though

       1. Sara Joy Mastodon 3 hr later

          @zachleat @robinwhittleton wubber

    2. Luke Harby Mastodon 4 hr later

       @robinwhittleton @zachleat

       🤯

    3. Tyler Sticka Mastodon 21 hr later

       @robinwhittleton @zachleat Not *completely* obsolete… 👀https://www.htmhell.dev/adventcalendar/2025/15/#:~:text=HTML.-,The%20%E2%80%9Cword%20break%20opportunity%E2%80%9D%20element,-%2C%20%3Cwbr

33. Khalid ⚡ Mastodon 43 min later

    @zachleat honestly, all the HN (h1, h2, h3) tags are bad. They should all be replaced in the same way we have UL and LI tags.

    1. Zach Leatherman Mastodon 45 min later

       @khalidabuhakmeh might I propose we dig in even deeper with <h7> <h8> <h9> and <h10>

       1. Khalid ⚡ Mastodon 2 hr later

          @zachleat

       2. Antoine Mastodon 6 days later

          @zachleat @khalidabuhakmeh well... using those quite often I confess

    2. Noah Liebman Mastodon 2 hr later

       @khalidabuhakmeh @zachleat headingoffset is coming! (maybe) https://mastodon.social/@firefoxwebdevs/116680726980295049

       1. Antoine Mastodon 6 days later

          @noleli @khalidabuhakmeh @zachleat ❤️

34. Rafael Pérez 🍁 Mastodon 43 min later

    @zachleat

    Has to be <blink>blink</blink>.

35. ☔ Jim Schofield 🌼 Bluesky 51 min later

    In terms of causing issues: frameset

36. Mike Aparicio Bluesky 52 min later

    <div>
    <div>
    <div>
    <div>
    <div>
    <div>
    This one.
    </div>
    </div>
    </div>
    </div>
    </div>
    </div>

    1. Mike Aparicio Bluesky 54 min later

       
37. Jim Nielsen Bluesky 53 min later

    <script>

38. Stuart Langridge Bluesky 57 min later

    <cite>

39. Private reply Bluesky 57 min later
40. Eric Bailey Bluesky 57 min later

    <ruby>

41. Sergey Chernyshev Bluesky 1 hr later

    </html>

42. Rafael Pérez 🍁 Mastodon 1 hr later

    @zachleat

    There's a strange mix of pride and regret regarding the blink tag, all according to this highly-scientific poll: https://mastodon.social/@rperezrosario/116995506783569011

    1. Zach Leatherman Mastodon 23 hr later

       @rperezrosario may polls and surveys continue to verify our biases

43. David ‮ yensiR Mastodon 1 hr later

    @zachleat doctype

    1. Zach Leatherman Mastodon 23 hr later

       @davidrisney if a preamble counts, I might still disagree 😅 we might have never made it to HTML5 without it

       1. David ‮ yensiR Mastodon 1 day later

          @zachleat I guess you're judging logically. I was going off which tag gives me the most residual anxiety

44. Mat “Wilto” Marquis Bluesky 1 hr later

    `<link rel="canonical" href="ht​tps://wil​.​to/">`

45. Roma Komarov Mastodon 1 hr later

    @zachleat `<plaintext>`

46. Private reply Mastodon 1 hr later
    1. Private reply Mastodon 1 hr later
       1. Private reply Mastodon 23 hr later
47. Private reply Bluesky 1 hr later
48. Cory Birdsong Mastodon 1 hr later

    @zachleat the case for <ol>: https://siderea.dreamwidth.org/1819759.html

    1. Zach Leatherman Mastodon 23 hr later

       @cbirdsong "I start with a single HTML tag and end with the downfall of civilization."

       …my god

49. Andreas Møller Bluesky 1 hr later

    Dont know which the worst one is but the one that makes me swear the most is dialog.

50. Ben Myers 🦖 Mastodon 1 hr later

    @zachleat `<data>` is the semantic element that most strikes me as a nothingburger.

51. Daniel Schwarz Bluesky 1 hr later

    Not the worst, but also not enough hate for <html>

52. Olivier Bluesky 1 hr later

    <button>.. why must I specify type="button" 😒

53. Ky Bluesky 1 hr later

    <input> 👹

    1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 6 hr later

       the foundation of all applications

54. Private reply Bluesky 1 hr later
    1. Private reply Bluesky 1 hr later
       1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 6 hr later

          *backs away slowly*

55. Bart Veneman Bluesky 1 hr later

    <s>

56. Passle ☭ Bluesky 1 hr later

    Yes

    1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 6 hr later

       excuse me

57. Cory Dransfeldt Bluesky 2 hr later

    <div>

58. Keith Wagner Bluesky 2 hr later

    <div class="btn-primary" onclick="alert('divs are not buttons')">Submit</div>

59. Jeff (2026) Bluesky 2 hr later

    <address>

60. Matthias Ott Bluesky 2 hr later

    Does <font> count? 😅

    1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 6 hr later

       emphatic yes (and also no)

61. CSS by T. Afif Bluesky 2 hr later

    <meter min="0" max="90" low="30" high="60" optimum="65" value="30" >

    It needs more attribute, there aren't enough...

62. Rasmus Fløe Bluesky 2 hr later

    <marquee> <mark> and the funky bunch...

63. Danny Engelman 🌷🏍️🛥️ Bluesky 2 hr later

    Every <div class="some-container">
    that could have been done with a
    UNdefined (no JS) Custom Element <some-container>

    ... since Edge was the last browser to support them
    ... in 2020

64. Koos Looijesteijn Bluesky 2 hr later

    A lot of the answers till now are obviously bad, which mitigates the harm they do, but after reading Heydon's article I really dislike <blockquote> because it doesn't do what most people think it does and it's all very confusing!

    heydonworks.com/article/the-...

65. Koos Looijesteijn Bluesky 2 hr later

    No but wait, <section> is the worst, because wth is "a generic section of a document or application" and then why is it not "a generic container element"?!

    Every time I thought I had a good reason to implement <section>s I ended up using <article> and <aside> instead

66. Johan Westling Bluesky 3 hr later

    I'd go for <map> + <area> or <template>. Template is great, but annoying that you can't use MutationObserver or some event (like <slot> and slotchange) to know when template is changed.

    Haven't found a solid solution yet, other than a webcomponent extending template with is-attribute... (no Safari)

    1. Konnor Rogers Bluesky 9 hr later

       You can actually bind to the template content and that seems to work in a quick test.

       mutationObserver.observe(document.querySelector("template").content), {
       characterData: true,
       childList: true,
       subtree: true,
       attributes: true
       })

       codepen.io/editor/param...

       1. Johan Westling Bluesky 1 day later

          Ahaaa, that was a tricky one! Thanks for charging 🤩

67. Mary Branscombe Bluesky 6 hr later

    BLINK tag

68. Sam Rose Bluesky 6 hr later

    The <math> family are an absolute nightmare to write.

69. Private reply Bluesky 6 hr later
    1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 23 hr later

       think of all the XSS this could solve 😅

70. Private reply Bluesky 7 hr later
    1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 23 hr later

       how deep must we go 😅

71. Private reply Bluesky 7 hr later
    1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 23 hr later

       don’t you curse my timeline with this, not today

72. ellioto.fyi Bluesky 8 hr later

    <big>

    1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 23 hr later

       pairs nicely with <small>

       1. ellioto.fyi Bluesky 1 day later

          At least small has a semantic meaning :)

73. Konnor Rogers Bluesky 9 hr later

    <xmp>

74. Aleksey Nazarenko Bluesky 9 hr later

    Is the <worst-html-element> web component technically considered an html element?

    1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 23 hr later

       even unknown elements are elements

    2. Danny Engelman 🌷🏍️🛥️ Bluesky 1 day later

       Yes, its a Custom Element

       Almost everything you write between < > extends from HTMLElement

       Some are UNdefined Custom Element and *can/but don't have to* be upgraded with the Custom Elements JavaScript API to a Defined Custom Element (Autonomous Element)

       The term Web Component applies to more

       
       1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 2 days later

          what is this Mix Elements business 👀🫣

          that bottom row is dragons!

          1. Danny Engelman 🌷🏍️🛥️ Bluesky 2 days later

             Had to dig up a 5 year old blog:

             dev.to/dannyengelma...

             1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 3 days later

                yikes! I’d take userspace conflict risk over platform conflict risk *any* day

       2. Aleksey Nazarenko Bluesky 4 days later

          I like the idea of using Undefined Custom Elements as generic containers and progressive enhancement for server rendered markup, but don't like to use Unknown Elements without hyphen due to compatibility risks.

          1. Danny Engelman 🌷🏍️🛥️ Bluesky 5 days later

             Depending on your needs using HTMLUnknownElements that might be overwritten by new WHATWG tags could actually be safer, as explained with the <progress> tag in my 5 year old blog:

             dev.to/dannyengelma...

75. khanglol Bluesky 16 hr later

    <menu>, which is literally a fancy <ul>

76. Private reply Bluesky 19 hr later
77. Nilesh Prajapati Bluesky 19 hr later

    input:
    - type="button"
    - type="submit"
    - type="reset"
    - type="image"

78. Joe Pea Bluesky 4 days later

    <sup> ✌️

79. L. David Baron Bluesky 4 days later

    <basefont>

80. Jakob E Bluesky 4 days later

    <details> very useful but I absolutely hate it throws the content into a pseudo-element like some sort of vendor prefix mutant