25 replies

1. Marcin Wichary Bluesky 4 min later

   Or a checkbox!

   1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 5 min later

      Wild idea!! 😅

   2. Konnor Rogers Bluesky 20 min later

      Glad someone else beat me to it...I'm like "these are just checkboxes masquerading as a toggle switch..."

2. w-lfpup Bluesky 11 min later

   WARIA actually specs text in the toggle island 😅

   And having worked on md switch I can say that toggles might actually be an anti-pattern. As in physical toggles change something immediately. Like a light bulb. On off is clear because wolf discoverability

   A list of toggles as settings is nonsense

   1. Zach Leatherman Bluesky 17 min later

      Great point! A light switch has a visual state 😅

      1. w-lfpup Bluesky 26 min later

         Could push it even further, a list of physical light switches confuses everyone! And despite labels you’re still gonna click just to see what lights go on and off

         But on your phone / website? You’re lucky if anything happens

         At least a checkbox intuits a distance between input and reactivity

3. Worik Mastodon 1 hr later

   @zachleat @mwichary

   On a related note: please use idempotent controls by default on user interfaces.

   1. Marcin Wichary Mastodon 1 hr later

      @worik @zachleat What do you mean?

      1. Worik Mastodon 1 hr later

         @mwichary @zachleat

         My Spotify player uses the same button for play and pause

         It is not always 100% responsive

         Did I press it properly? Better press it again, carefully, now I am paused.

         If it had idempotent buttons one that does play, one that does pause, I could press the play button twice, safely, despite the platforms unavoidable poor performance

         Basic UX that is mostly ignored by designers

         1. Marcin Wichary Mastodon 2 hr later

            @worik @zachleat Sorry, are you suggesting all switches and checkboxes should also have two idempotent click targets for both states? I’m not sure I see the connection.

            1. Worik Mastodon 2 hr later

               @mwichary @zachleat

               Not all, I am not an extremist, on this matter

               But by default a control should do the same thing if used N times in a row as it does if used once

               Computer interfaces are unavoidable unreliable and idempotence really helps

               1. Marcin Wichary Mastodon 2 hr later

                  @worik I am not sure I agree with this. Separate playback and pause controls, for example, would add complexity both visually and interactively – I think in this case it would be a net negative overall.

                  1. Worik Mastodon 2 hr later

                     @mwichary ...so we will all suffer. UX sacrificed for appearance

                     Mēh, this is why I avoid GUIs. All eye candy over utility

                     1. Marcin Wichary Mastodon 2 hr later

                        @worik It’s not just appearance.

                        1. Worik Mastodon 7 hr later

                           @mwichary Then do not do it!

                           Controls that are hard t use are, well, hard to use!!

                           I think you are arguing for anti-patterns. I mostly experience GUIs in Web Apps and on my phone, and I find controls that change their function depending on when they are used are very disconcerting

4. Lea de Groot TZ+10 Mastodon 3 hr later

   @zachleat @mwichary i loath switches with a passion - i always have to guess what the setting is - and always use a simple checkbox unless work forces me not to. There is no cognitive load in a checkbox.

5. Private reply Mastodon 3 hr later
6. Curtis Wilcox Mastodon 4 hr later

   @zachleat
   > Is the toggle on when the circle is on the left or right?

   When the toggle switch is 'on' and the language is left-to-right, the thumb is on the right. Whatever the language direction and writing mode, 'on' is 'end', 'off' is 'start'. This convention is true beyond Apple OSes.

   What 'on' and 'off' mean depends on what it does and how it's labeled.

   @mwichary

   1. Marcin Wichary Mastodon 4 hr later

      @cwilcox808 @zachleat But note how the first paragraph is wholly unnecessary when explaining checkboxes the same way.

      1. Curtis Wilcox Mastodon 4 hr later

         @mwichary
         True, but checkboxes are form controls and imply nothing will happen until there's a separate submit/save action. Toggle switches are meant to make something happen immediately, no second action required.
         @zachleat

         1. Marcin Wichary Mastodon 4 hr later

            @cwilcox808 @zachleat I don’t believe this is actually true in practice, alas – plenty of counterexamples on either side.

            1. Curtis Wilcox Mastodon 5 hr later

               @mwichary
               Sure, lots of examples of these conventions not being followed, on and off the web.
               But those are the expectations set by the interfaces in the minds of users who have, consciously or unconsciously, learned these associations.
               @zachleat

               1. Marcin Wichary Mastodon 5 hr later

                  @cwilcox808 I don’t think this is true, either. For as long as checkboxes have been around, there have been instant, form-less checkboxes, both on Mac OS and Windows. This isn’t even something that used to work and broke. It never worked this way.

                  Apple just wanted a different looking checkbox for the iPhone, and most of disambiguation between checkboxes and switches since has been wishful postrationalization that has little basis in reality.

                  1. Marcin Wichary Mastodon 5 hr later

                     @cwilcox808 I know of many *designers* who can’t explain the difference, let alone users.

               2. Rowan Tommins Mastodon 13 hr later

                  @cwilcox808 @mwichary @zachleat Honestly, that supposed rule has never even occurred to me. The main place I see switches used is those deliberately hard-to-use "privacy" popups, where they're just form elements with a submit button.

                  My thought process on immediate vs on-submit is more like "hmm, I can't see the Save button, so I guess I just close the window and hope it auto-saved". Half the time, I load the page back up to check.

                  So yeah, if you're relying on that distinction being understood, please stop and just add a small flash message saying "Saved" when I tick a checkbox.