133 replies

1. Henri Helvetica 🧑🏾‍🚀🇭🇹 4 min later

   Can we get a comment from Mr Leatherman?

   1. Zach Leatherman 7 min later

      I have lots of comments about this 👍

      1. Henri Helvetica 🧑🏾‍🚀🇭🇹 50 min later

         as I had hoped -or- knew really. Hope to hear more.

2. Zach Leatherman 4 min later

   I truly believe that many folks in positions of power in web development don’t understand basic progressive enhancement.

   1. Zach Leatherman 6 min later

      We can save the optics of using the term “mind virus” for another time (but, gross)

      1. Danny Blue 7 min later

         I was about to say, that term tell you everything you need to know

         1. Danny Blue 8 min later

            also its very hard to sell someone vanilla HTML...

            1. Daniel Schildt 4 hr later

               HTML is so enterprise scalable that it would win awards. 😅

      2. Mary Branscombe 3 hr later

         if that's who I think it is, it's a great example of a CEO managing to *un*evangelise their service

         1. Alex Russell 4 days later

            You get the sense that the austerity he's worried about might be in the area of overpriced cloudflare resellers and their slow, proprietary APIs.

            1. Mary Branscombe 4 days later

               Maybe he’s excited for someone’s approach for dealing with the competition by rabble rousing

   2. Michael 8 min later

      At the brochure-site level everything is design driven. Progressive enhancement means that sometimes it won't look like what we sold the client. That's a tough thing to explain up.

      1. Zach Leatherman 14 min later

         Yeah—but folks aren’t arguing for HTML *only* as that quote suggested

         1. Michael 15 min later

            Oh for sure. Everything in moderation. That's why we have all three languages to use.

   3. Scott Jehl 11 min later

      Summarizing folks' well-informed sentiments about the measurably poor user experience of react sites as a whole as 'don't use JS' is a pretty lazy read. 🙄

      1. Large Heydon Collider 14 min later

         They think "don’t use React" means "don’t use JavaScript" because they never learned or they forgot how to do JS without React. They think React == JS.

         1. David Darnes 24 min later

            I am once again reminded about your sentiments about binary thinking

      2. Zach Leatherman 17 min later

         100% 🫠

         1. Scott Jehl 42 min later

            same tweet rephrased every day 😅 bsky.app/profile/scot...

            1. Zach Leatherman 46 min later

               it’s only been 15+ years of saying the same thing (correctly) 🫠

               1. Scott Jehl 54 min later

                  Well, the recent changes to popularly prioritize server-rendering tells me the work is working! It's just slow because the message runs counter to so many business and developer conveniences, and genuinely a lot of our industry isn't familiar with working any other way now.

   4. Andy Bell 32 min later

      i think they do but it puts their business model at risk, so they gaslight instead

      1. Zach Leatherman 33 min later

         I’m sure it’s unrelated to some survey results that came out today (though I have complicated opinions about those too)

         1. Andy Bell 34 min later

            i have not yet looked at the state of the fellas results yet

   5. Keith J. Grant 1 hr later

      I’d go further and say there’s a contingent that doesn’t really understand the grain of the web at all. I think there’s a chunk of the industry that came in several years ago from more conventional software backgrounds and never really gained that understanding

      1. Adam Ziolkowski 1 hr later

         What is the grain of the web in 2024? I ask because I want to know if might need to update my definition which I aquired in early 2000. As for that cohort, I won't deny that there is a large pool of developers that don't have that background and to them React is JS, the web is React...

         1. Adam Ziolkowski 1 hr later

            but some are seasoned application developers and they find the 'document-based' web lacking in that context... they think in apps, big, fat apps and not just islands of interactivity.

         2. Keith J. Grant 4 hr later

            I don't really think the grain of the web has changed in any significant ways... it's still progressive enhancement, URL behavior (e.g. using links vs buttons), etc.

            In many ways, it's an understanding that HTML+CSS+JS+SVG is itself a framework and how to work idiomatically within that framework.

            1. Adam Ziolkowski 4 hr later

               In the context of working in larger organizations that create a lot of apps (B2B) there is a LOT of value in using a popular web framework. If an organization doesn't use one, someone will create their own and at that point, more often than not, you'd want to run for the hills.

               1. Keith J. Grant 4 hr later

                  Oh I definitely agree.

                  There is a lot of value in using a popular web framework, but I think part of that *should* be understanding the underlying web framework it’s built on top of as well.

                  1. Keith J. Grant 4 hr later

                     Some (though not necessarily all) of the ire aimed at React, for instance, is really a gripe with devs who use React but don’t fully understand the web framework. These are not strictly problems with React at all, but React becomes a lightning rod for those frustrations.

                     1. Adam Ziolkowski 4 hr later

                        Yeah, it's the same on the backend side... "hey, I know Django, I must be a great Python developer" :)

                     2. Steven 10 hr later

                        Well and all the broken middle clock because the framework is creating links through JavaScript. Oh and it’s slow af.

                        1. Keith J. Grant 10 hr later

                           The framework doesn’t “make links through JavaScript”. It renders whatever HTML the developer tells it to. If the dev is using event handlers instead of native links, the dev’s own fault

                           1. Steven 10 hr later

                              It’s what the docs (at least previously) showed in tutorials and made the easiest.

   6. Private reply 1 hr later
   7. ppk 🇪🇺 2 hr later

      My question: have these people in power ever before openly acknowledged there is a theory of web development other than their own React/whatever one?

      Is this sort of snipe at normal web dev new? Or are such snipes becoming more common?

      If so ... we're getting somewhere. They're on the defensive.

      1. Zach Leatherman 2 hr later

         yeah, definitely has the air of losing control of the narrative

         1. ppk 🇪🇺 3 hr later

            I am getting the same feeling from other things I'm seeing. So ... yay, I guess?

3. George Rodier 8 min later

   What irks me a little about that comment is that I don't think I've ever seen anyone say only HTML alone is good enough for every type of app (mainly due to accessibility concerns). But there is a real "how much" question that is too often ignored

   1. Zach Leatherman 15 min later

      100% it’s easy to argue against a position no one has taken

      1. Andy Davies 52 min later

         This!

4. Large Heydon Collider 13 min later

   Why is everything a ““mind virus“” to these cunts?

   1. Pier 39 min later

      Because it's easier to say "you're infected" than formulating a rational argument.

      1. Simeon.__proto__ 4 hr later

         Plus the funny egomaniac I admire said it so I should also say it

   2. Craig T 1 hr later

      It's to pave the way for the actual mind virus they want to inflict using neuralink as a vector. Presumably in order to make them more money

5. Archived fry69 16 min later

   I even agree with the first part of this sentence, but 'austerity mind virus' is reason enough stay away from Vercel/Next.js and file this guy under cult leader.

6. Adam Kuhn 17 min later

   vercel/automattic merger feels imminent at this point

   1. Andy Bell 25 min later

      vercel/automattic/37signals/coinbase

      1. Adam Kuhn 32 min later

         axis of evil 2025

      2. Mary Branscombe 3 hr later

         😭

7. Pier 41 min later

   "either you're with us or you're infected"

8. Bogdan Chadkin 51 min later

   I would say invokers is the missing piece in html and js communication. Once they out html alone will be enough for many things.

9. henry ✷ 53 min later

   you can’t make dogshit over-eng websites anymore….because of woke

   1. Zach Leatherman 1 hr later

      I laughed so hard at this 😅

      1. Private reply 1 hr later
         1. Zach Leatherman 1 hr later

            sometimes we just have to say things out loud

            1. henry ✷ 1 hr later

               like the pledge of allegiance 🙂‍↕️🦅🦅

               1. Zach Leatherman 1 hr later

                  …wait

   2. Jhey ʕ·ᴥ·　ʔ 3 hr later

      💀

   3. Phil Hawksworth 4 days later

      LOLLLLLLL

10. Brian LeRoux 1 hr later
11. Konnor Rogers 1 hr later
    1. Zach Leatherman 1 hr later

       clint westwood looking grumpy as always

       1. Konnor Rogers 1 hr later

          shit you not, i was drinking my coffee and made this exact expression of disgust.

       2. Private reply 17 hr later
12. Wolfgang Wiese 1 hr later

    People who throw out Apps for quick money might say so.
    But webmasters who have to maintaine a website for years,who have to care about SEO, performance, accessibility and system updates, who also have to teach content authors to work with the site, will curse and give such devs names.

    1. Adam Ziolkowski 2 hr later

       I watched a debate on DW the other day and they talked about how Germany was in a dire need of digital revolution. I think they might have had a point. You still call them webmasters?

       1. Wolfgang Wiese 2 hr later

          People who were online in the earliest days of the web know that there is more to the term webmaster than just an admin. Today you would call it a full stack developer, and that would be an understatement.

          Do you know a better, newer term for someone who takes care of websites as described above?

          1. Philipp Nowinski 3 hr later

             "10x engineers"

             Please don't.

          2. Adam Ziolkowski 3 hr later

             I know, I was one, though they call me "our web guy" in one place :) I think most orgs might call them web or frontend developers/designers/admins. Fullstack is largely meaningless. I know the struggle.

             1. Wolfgang Wiese 3 hr later

                It depends on who you're talking to. In a debate here with Zach, I think it's ok, right?

                When speaking to non-IT people, I also might use the term "Senior Website Manager."

                1. Zach Leatherman 3 hr later

                   I personally like the vibe of webmaster. It’s warm and cozy and has some lovely nostalgia to it

                   1. Adam Ziolkowski 3 hr later

                      I do, too. But nobody hires webmasters anymore :)

          3. Mary Branscombe 3 hr later

             a lot of the industry moved on from using the term 'master' in any context after Black Lives Matter; web admin or even web team if you have more than one person

             1. Adam Ziolkowski 3 hr later

                Yeah... but there's something to say about the mastery of one's craft. It's all contained in that one word. The closest I can bear is expertise... command, supremacy, authority have negative connotation... competence, proficiency are a little insufficient.

                1. Mary Branscombe 3 hr later

                   it's a nice and expressive word, but I'll give it up in a heartbeat to help people feel less excluded

13. sean 1 hr later

    conjuring straw men to win imaginary debates against is peak birdapp energy that's captured even some smart ceos.

    I've been making websites for as long as javascript has existed and can't recall a single person ever calling for "html alone," much less a viral epidemic of such thinking

    1. Zach Leatherman 1 hr later

       “many people are saying this” 😅

       1. sean 1 hr later

          "perhaps some aspects of modern web dev have become overly complex"

          "oh so you think all code should be hand-written with a quill pen and soot ink on papyrus, and flown between servers via carrier pigeons?"

          1. Large Heydon Collider 3 hr later

             Followed by "I am very clever."

             1. Aaron Gustafson 4 hr later

                Like ninja or guru level clever. 10x!

             2. Bsmth, the bsmth guy 5 hr later

                And then everybody clapped

          2. Michael 3 hr later

             It smacks of "I'm tired of learning" and I can't with that.

14. Richard MacManus 1 hr later

    We best keep those img tags in the box, it seems.

    1. Zach Leatherman 1 hr later

       If <img> and fonts were as bad for performance as JavaScript (they aren’t), would he be advocating for them?

       1. Luke 2 hr later

          Vercel will offer some image service soon and he'll be shouting from the rooftops how great the picture, source and img elements are all of a sudden.

          1. Richard MacManus 2 hr later

             Indeed, that is exactly what Vercel does. I believe it has a custom “React-based image component” called <Image>.

             1. claus 3 hr later

                That component pulls in 100kb of JavaScript but hey, images load really fast now

                1. Luke 3 hr later

                   I really hope that's an exaggeration / joke, but given it's nextjs I'm also doubtful.

                   Is 60kb of that just React? Or are we not even including that in this number...

                   1. claus 3 hr later

                      Oh it's a number that's made up for comedic effect but if you add React bundle size you're probably in the ball park.

                      I looked into Vercel's <Image> recently because i wanted some of its functionality for an Astro project and was disgusted by the bloat. But Google co-wrote it so it must be great?

                      1. Jason Miller 4 hr later

                         i was on that team, the original implementation was a web component

                         1. claus 8 hr later

                            Oh i remember looking at an early-ish version (React already though) that was way less bloaty, it had the srcset stuff and some other light things (size, alt, priority etc). I don't know what happened.

                      2. Simon Pieters 4 hr later

                         But if you make the image wow-animate on scroll then it doesn't matter that it loads later, because, wow!

             2. Mary Branscombe 3 hr later

                I spent *so long* trying to wrap my head around just the top level of what the different Next.js image handling options are and which of them make any sense if you're not on Vercel

       2. Rasmus Fløe 5 hr later

          It doesn’t require 2mb of HTML to mess up <img> and fonts 🤷

          E.g. the`sizes` attribute needs to reflect the CSS layout (which can be a daunting task in nested grid layouts); if it doesn’t you’ll end up loading a too small image - or too large.

    2. Andrew Lisowski 💻 2 hr later

       setting the height and width on an image is such an incredibly low bar lol

       1. daniel r(ooooooh) in nyc 🇺🇸 3 hr later

          tbf I see it _so_ often

          1. Michael 4 hr later

             Your honor I am guilty of nothing more than working without final assets

             How does that sound? I’m considering posting it on Bluesky as an excuse for forgetting to set height and width on images

    3. Nils Riedemann 18 hr later

       It baffles me, that *this* is somehow turned into an argument, especially by *him* of all people. The irony is manifold.

    4. Pier 1 day later
15. Rich Holman 2 hr later

    Double took so hard I got whiplash.

16. Simeon.__proto__ 3 hr later

    Is it just me, or does "mind virus" sound like a dog whistle?

    1. Simeon.__proto__ 3 hr later

       Oh, guess it's not just me
       bsky.app/profile/zach...

17. Jake Lazaroff 3 hr later

    what do you call the mind virus where you make up a position that no one is arguing for and call it a “mind virus”

18. Filip Rakowski 3 hr later

    Wow. That's a bad take with an easter egg bad take in it

    1. Filip Rakowski 3 hr later

       Also use whatever tf you want as long as it solves the problem in a good enough way in a good enough timeframe

19. Phil Nash 4 hr later

    This is why I’m advocating for CSS only websites. No HTML (it’s too hard) and no JS, just life in the cascade.

    1. Zach Leatherman 4 hr later

       truly brave and innovative!

    2. Ville M. Vainio 4 hr later

       I recommend using text files over ftp as the only truly accessible solution

       1. Louis Couture ⚜️🌐🗽🏗️🏳️‍🌈 7 hr later

          Just send me binary code over

    3. Liam Murray 10 hr later

       Finally some reasonable thinking

20. Greg Munt 4 hr later

    HTML alone is good enough if all you care about is content. However, if you care about the experience of the person reading your content, you need more.

    But if you're going to say that you need React or a JS framework? That is fighting talk.

21. Manik 4 hr later

    the choice of “mind virus” was indicative of the value of the overall message

22. Lindsay Wardell 4 hr later

    When you don't run JS in the browser, you can't have a mind virus injection attack! /s

    But in all seriousness, wtf. This is just painful.

23. Private reply 4 hr later
24. reaper 5 hr later

    Guess i’m going to have to take systems programming more seriously.

25. Private reply 5 hr later
    1. Private reply 5 hr later
26. Adam Stoddard 5 hr later

    the only real mind virus is the one where people earnestly use the term "mind virus"

    1. Zach Leatherman 5 hr later

       elon notice meeeeee

27. Stuart Langridge 5 hr later

    Is it possible that the worst take about the web, or indeed about anything, might be to deliberately mischaracterise people who say you’re wrong in order to push your own agenda?

    1. Brian LeRoux 5 hr later

       buckle up, the best is yet to come ! suspect this sort of lashing out correlates with more than ways to render html 💀💀💀

    2. Zach Leatherman 5 hr later

       Absolutely. I do think carefully about the power dynamics before I criticize a take online

       1. Stuart Langridge 5 hr later

          Totally! Which others are not doing, hence your extremely well made point

28. Jim Nielsen 5 hr later

    Has this statement been evaluated by the FDA?

    1. Zach Leatherman 5 hr later

       I’m glad everyone sees the RFK Jr in this quote 🏆

29. Triplejack Poker 5 hr later

    People are seriously saying this? Like, no client side JS at all? In 2024? It’s ok to laugh some people out of a room.

30. Manoj Khangaonkar 7 hr later

    The virus is that there are ~200 JS frameworks that a casual web developer much choose from, when ever they want to build a front end.

    No other space in software engineering is as cluttered and chaotic as the JS based front end space.

    1. Claire 16 hr later

       You’re right but it also has its upsides.

       Don’t like React? Use Vue, Svelte or one of the other 2mil frameworks.

       Don’t like Spring? Tough luck 🫠

31. natemoore on elm street 👻 8 hr later

    The woke mob is going to confiscate your g̴u̴n̴s̴ JavaScript

    1. Zach Leatherman 9 hr later

       CSS border control

32. Ben Buchanan 4 days later

    That is quite a reductive straw man he's created there. It's like he benefits in some way from people running very complex JS stacks.