A blog post about what is likely the biggest @11ty.dev news in our project’s history — and we need your help!
Zach Leatherman 5656 replies 138138 likes218218 reposts11 quote Original on MastodonOriginal on BlueskyAlso posted to Mastodon.
56 replies
@zachleat But still with CloudCannon, correct? The “working independently on 11ty full time” reference raised my eyebrows slightly. 🤔
@BryceWrayTX no longer with CloudCannon, unfortunately. Nothing but love for all those folks though.
@zachleat 😢 Yep, know what you mean. Did some work for them briefly but it came to an end. Same good feelings for the whole bunch.
I've just contributed to Eleventy. Consider supporting them too — every little helps! https://opencollective.com/11ty
@eleventy@zachleat Am I reading this correctly that you're leaving Cloud Cannon to become fully independent?
@cthos I am no longer working at CloudCannon, yes. 11ty is now my full time job.
A good OSS project is not necessary one without opened issues. Looking at the quality of floss by the number of issues is a misconception of what an issue is.
its not a shopping list to fill as fast as possible but a list of problems in a shared space where the community can provide a solution in the existing state
Bugs are fixed, new features get in, documentation is great, community amazingly alive.Its not stagnation
@julientaq @zachleat @eleventy "the documentation is great" rofl have you ever used the docs?
@julientaq @zachleat @eleventy (for context, i've offered, along with other community members, to significantly if not fully restructure and rewrite the documentation on our own volunteer time)
@julientaq @zachleat @eleventy additionally im also one of the most active respondents to questions in the community discord, ive answered hundreds of questions and sent thousands of replies - some questions are so basic that it is clear where the problem lies...
it’s clear the problem is that people dont read the docs?
(sorry couldn’t resist).
I dont know about your story, but please be nice to people. don’t insult their work nor what they manage to do or not.
One never only knows their half of the story, and it’s easy to hurt people by not being careful.
@julientaq @zachleat @eleventy no, it's clear that the docs are poorly structured and fail to maintain the balance between reference materials and guides in a way that ends up with the benefits of neither (not enough reference so it's hard to learn the apis and too much tutorial material that it feels half like a walkthrough but without enough context).
@julientaq @zachleat @eleventy and for clarity, i'm not trying to insult zach's work here. i am only pointing out zach's inability to accept help from a community eager to assist. i understand that maintaining a large open source project is difficult, but he need not maintain it alone - most large projects of this size have a group of regular committers and contributors to steer the project in the right direction, merge key prs, maintain various neglected repos...
@uncenter @julientaq @eleventy for sure there’s some truth here, and I can tell you’re frustrated.
The docs need work (and have been given a lower priority especially when we were in side project status). I appreciate all the help folks have given on the issue tracker and on the Discord.
I am also _very_ cautious to accept large scale contributions as I am ultimately responsible to maintain everything (not just now but years down the line)—I am very shrewd about large changes.
@uncenter @julientaq @eleventy Importantly, we have expanded our issue triage team—we have 4 folks helping there.
I *am* happy with the open PR numbers on core (though not on issues, hopefully we can improve there).
If you have specific issues you’d like to see addressed, please let me know—I’m keen to correct any wrongs you think are languishing.
But just to be frank—if the goal is to expand commit or publishing rights on core, that’s a very hard sell and probably not on the table.
@zachleat @julientaq @eleventy glad to hear that the triage team has expanded! i was thinking not necessarily expanding permissions/rights to merge PRs or make commits but moreso active PR reviews (time permitting) to allow an environment where others beyond you can regularly contribute to core.
@zachleat @julientaq @eleventy on the second detail, do you think you could outline a roadmap for your plans for v3 and v4 and beyond? i think some clarity here on what the priorities are here would be helpful. personally i think the following issues are key to address soon:
- https://github.com/11ty/eleventy/issues/3097
- https://github.com/11ty/eleventy/issues/2522
- https://github.com/11ty/eleventy/issues/1254@zachleat @julientaq @eleventy and for the documentation, reading through https://github.com/11ty/eleventy/issues/3095 has a few different perspectives and ive linked a few more issues in my response. i think the best course of action is literally starting an initiative to rewrite the docs. i have some ideas for ways to improve it (layout, structure, appearance, content, writing style) but its hard to implement those without proper support from you
@julientaq @zachleat @eleventy definitely on board here that issue count != quality but this is not like every case. there are plenty of bugs that would definitely get fixed *if zach decided to make it a friendlier environment to contribute to*
@uncenter @zachleat @eleventy I agree 100% that the docs need significant work. They're not "new to 11ty" friendly.
I also think your tone is REALLY bad here, considering what a positive force Zach is in the web community. You're not talking to someone who dismisses or ignores users. Zach deserves more respect than that.
@cferdinandi @zachleat @eleventy i actually don't think pointing to accurate numbers in a response to zach questioning my use of the word stagnate is a "REALLY bad" tone.
@uncenter @cferdinandi @eleventy fwiw, I will say that I interpreted it as hostile
@zachleat @cferdinandi @eleventy i can see that now but im merely trying to justify my usage of the word. no offense intended!
@cferdinandi @zachleat @eleventy so the problem isn't what i said? my dude what are you saying
@cferdinandi @zachleat @eleventy how would you phrase it?
@uncenter @zachleat @eleventy I think telling someone who's talking about focusing full time on a vibrant project that it's "stagnated" set the tone off wrong from the start.
"Have you considered bringing on more full time folks so you can grow faster and address your backlog more easily?" is essentially asking the same thing without "negging" Zach or the project.
@cferdinandi @zachleat @eleventy ahhh yeah that would have been a better way to say it - didn't realize stagnate was interpreted as so negative -_-
@cferdinandi @zachleat @eleventy also ironic that you mention him not ignoring people when he left me on read in our dms for 5 months 😅
@uncenter @cferdinandi @eleventy I can assure you that it not on purpose!
I do see some old bookmarked DMs that got lost in the shuffle. I’m not sure this is the best way to ping me about those, though.
@zachleat @cferdinandi @eleventy i dont mind at all, just found it ironic! this is not an attempt to get you to respond to them 😅
@rikschennink @eleventy Appreciate you Rik!!
@christian @zachleat appreciate you Christian!!
- Congratulations!
@matthew thank you!
y’all are incredible — thank you so much for boosting and sharing this.
@zachleat @eleventy : Offering my very best wishes and support for 11ty independence and sustainability! Your work has become a very influential, inspirational part of my technological viewpoint. I think the brilliant 11ty Conference echoed how this is the case for many.
Bottom line, thank you very much for your ideas, contributions, and continuing efforts! I will continue to test every alpha and hope to contribute helpful, constructive issue feedback.@ericcarlisle thank you so much Eric!! 🙌🙌🙌
